Bernd,
I will focus on the Viz side of things for the moment but generally those using the new free modelling plugin find it quite useful, although the size of anything created in C4D when it is exported back to ArchiCAD is a bit of a problem. Objects that C4D has no problems working with can turn into enormous GDL objects in ArchiCAD which really slow things down.
For Viz work all use the Exchange Plugin as i expect most do - generating views of the ArchiCAD model and exporting the geometry based on Material, perhaps as several files, say for Structure, Interiors, Enclosure, etc matching Hotlink Modules in ArchiCAD - helps to break up large files which can often crash C4D on Merge. We have Cinema4D templates setup with shaders assigned to a dummy file with all materials from our ArchiCAD template. Therefore for maximum efficiency our workflow relies on assigning all the correct properties in ArchiCAD and keeping the amount of work done in Cinema to a minimum (typically just adding render elements such as trees, people, etc). Cameras and lights are generally set up in ArchiCAD and exported along with the geometry and then adjusted in Cinema as required (one reason is composite AC+C4D drawings so the cameras need to align).
The ability to export geometry grouped by different options is very important to the efficiency of this workflow. Group by Material is the most common and is the one we really miss - it makes it extremely quick to find and replace material assignments in C4D. The major problem with the current AC12 export plugin for C4D is that is breaks the model up into hundreds of elements according to the ArchiCAD model structure (columns, slabs, etc) and there is no option as to how this is done. Now although this might give you a little more flexibility in Cinema if you need to edit elements, this makes it extremely time consuming to find elements
and assign materials, tags, etc
.. so this means everything changes all the time!
Geometry changes are pretty frequent, particularly during competitions when it may be several times per day. All model changes are done in AC and these need to be updated in Cinema without having to reassign all your shaders, tags, etc. This is what is so great about the current Exhange Plugin - it does pretty much exactly what we need (but maybe we have just gotten used to what we have).
Almost forgot .. one more thing the plugin is great for is doing material options - so you have several copies of the imported ArchiCAD geometry with different shader options assigned, which all get updated with any AC model changes. Having to reassign shaders on multiple copies of the model every time would be a nightmare.
hope this helps - tried to keep it general but if you want any more info just ask. Im sure everyone else has plenty to contribute on this too as they are full-time Viz guys .. its just a small part of what we do.
b_lutz wrote:Good to hear from you, and i must say this interaction from both GS and Maxon is very encouraging. Thanks for asking for our input.
..I am following this thread since some time now and there is much important information for me in it. As Gergely already pointed out, the way data is exchanged between ArchiCAD and CINEMA 4D si exchanged changed. Those changes brought some problems, but also gives us much more possibilities in the future.
b_lutz wrote:So as i mentioned before our clients (currently all architects) are using both ArchiCAD (v10-12) and Cinema4D (R10-R11). These offices are generally focused on smaller scale residential, commercial and educational projects although there are a few larger projects in the mix (largest being a high-rise project). Competitions are common as well.
..what kind of work you are doing and what kind of projects you are working on.
b_lutz wrote:Most of the offices using C4D are using it both for Visualization (the Exchange Plugin) and Modelling (the old 'Maxonform' plugin).
To help me understanding your problems better, could you please give me a quick overview on your workflow ..
I will focus on the Viz side of things for the moment but generally those using the new free modelling plugin find it quite useful, although the size of anything created in C4D when it is exported back to ArchiCAD is a bit of a problem. Objects that C4D has no problems working with can turn into enormous GDL objects in ArchiCAD which really slow things down.
For Viz work all use the Exchange Plugin as i expect most do - generating views of the ArchiCAD model and exporting the geometry based on Material, perhaps as several files, say for Structure, Interiors, Enclosure, etc matching Hotlink Modules in ArchiCAD - helps to break up large files which can often crash C4D on Merge. We have Cinema4D templates setup with shaders assigned to a dummy file with all materials from our ArchiCAD template. Therefore for maximum efficiency our workflow relies on assigning all the correct properties in ArchiCAD and keeping the amount of work done in Cinema to a minimum (typically just adding render elements such as trees, people, etc). Cameras and lights are generally set up in ArchiCAD and exported along with the geometry and then adjusted in Cinema as required (one reason is composite AC+C4D drawings so the cameras need to align).
b_lutz wrote:Mostly stills, animations not very often (may change, just a training issue we are working on). The VRayforC4D render engine is also used by some and renders usually go through post in Photoshop.
Are you mostly doing still or animations also? Are you using any other software after rendering in CINEMA 4D?
b_lutz wrote:In general the existing Exchange Plugin works really well for Viz purposes - there could be some improvements the others who directly use this every day may be able to contribute, i will give it some thought and get back.
What is the biggest problem with the exchange between ArchiCAD 12 and CINEMA 4D?
The ability to export geometry grouped by different options is very important to the efficiency of this workflow. Group by Material is the most common and is the one we really miss - it makes it extremely quick to find and replace material assignments in C4D. The major problem with the current AC12 export plugin for C4D is that is breaks the model up into hundreds of elements according to the ArchiCAD model structure (columns, slabs, etc) and there is no option as to how this is done. Now although this might give you a little more flexibility in Cinema if you need to edit elements, this makes it extremely time consuming to find elements
and assign materials, tags, etc
b_lutz wrote:As i said, they are all architects
How often does a project get updated and what kind of data is getting changed?
.. so this means everything changes all the time!
Geometry changes are pretty frequent, particularly during competitions when it may be several times per day. All model changes are done in AC and these need to be updated in Cinema without having to reassign all your shaders, tags, etc. This is what is so great about the current Exhange Plugin - it does pretty much exactly what we need (but maybe we have just gotten used to what we have).
Almost forgot .. one more thing the plugin is great for is doing material options - so you have several copies of the imported ArchiCAD geometry with different shader options assigned, which all get updated with any AC model changes. Having to reassign shaders on multiple copies of the model every time would be a nightmare.
hope this helps - tried to keep it general but if you want any more info just ask. Im sure everyone else has plenty to contribute on this too as they are full-time Viz guys .. its just a small part of what we do.
b_lutz wrote:
could you please give me a quick overview on your workflow
Once again, similar to Owens. As the ArchiCad model is generally also used for building documentation, the modelling needs to be very accurate, so the more we can do in ArchiCad, the better. For the initial merge we always use 'materials' with cameras and lights. (any update I don't use lights or cameras as they only seem to export the camera position, the focal length etc is always incorrect for a C4D camera and the C4D cameras are much more powerfull)
A quick little issue, the exporting always has camera/lights ticked. It would be good if it remember the previous export options.
b_lutz wrote:
and some information on what kind of work you are doing and what kind of projects you are working on.
Residential and commercial projects, mostly external. Mostly no larger than 3-4 storey's though if anyone has any larger projects they need help with, send me a PM
b_lutz wrote:
Are you mostly doing still or animations also?
Usually stills, only 1 or 2 animations per year.
b_lutz wrote:
Are you using any other software after rendering in CINEMA 4D?
Almost exclusively Vray
b_lutz wrote:
What is the biggest problem with the exchange between ArchiCAD 12 and CINEMA 4D?
From what I see, there is no real exchange. The ability to go back and forth between the programs would be exchange. Sure the 'maxonform' functionality is good but it doesn't allow the primary aim (from my point of view) of the plugin. Quickly updating ArchiCad and therefore C4D. Can you imagine the frustration of needing to move a window in a large project and spending an hour reassigning materials? Of course we could move it in C4D but we would loss the 'link' with ArchiCad.
b_lutz wrote:
How often does a project get updated and what kind of data is getting changed?
Daily if not hourly. So often we get a call "we want to see what it looks like with a round window" then an hour later " how about a triangle?"
Hope this is helpful!
This is just an idea for discussion. In ArchiCad we create viewsets for our documents that basically take a snapshot of the project with particular layers, pens, materials etc. Integration into Archicad via saving a view of the model could then basically 'hotlink' our file to C4D. Save ArchiCad and run an 'update ArchiCad model' in C4D would be real integration. I think this would be good generally for projects but there could be issues with saving different versions, teamwork etc. Just a thought.....
owen wrote:Good in theory but I always use C4D for importing better cars, trees, people etc so the render in C4D would really just be an update of the C4D file. Which lighting rig would it use?, etc would be an issue if you just send it to C4D.
Being able to define bi-directional links between AC and C4D cameras could even open the door for accessing Cinema functions directly within ArchiCAD, such as 'Render Camera in Cinema4D' ..
If you were to follow that thinking, you'd really be saying instead of render with lightworks, render with AR, render with Maxwell , render with Vray etc.
I've always believed Archicad should an architectural documenting, BIM tool first and a renderer second. Sure lightworks etc should be improved and developed, but not at the expense of the real job ArchiCad does. We all know it has a lot of unresolved issues with new tools that don't quiet work properly and haven't been fixed for several releases (ie SEO's, libraries, curved roofs etc). Let Graphisoft work on ArchiCad, Maxon work on C4D and just maintain a good link between the two.
The current plugin (NOT exchange plugin but 'Maxonform') for me is completely separate software and it's only use is creating distorted objects not easily generated in ArchiCad. Unfortunatley they are completely bloated and generally unusable in mainstream documentation (unless you like to hack GDL) but OK in the design process. Maybe new API's like 'objective', cadimage, etc might fill this role better eventually?
Sorry, little Sunday night rant...
Cheers
Still looking?
