Zermatt [and in 2009: Virtual Building Explorer]

Anonymous · ‎2007-11-08

Has anybody heard some news about the zermatt engine? We know it sort of stopped beeing developed any further but any idea if there is still a future for this product?

Thanks Carsten

Chazz · ‎2009-03-02

Krippahl wrote:
Also being able to extract information from the various components, besides dimensions and layers, is indispensable. For instance, if I select a door I want to see all kinds of info, like materials, fabricator, prices, fire rating, and all those things that are already in my model.

I could not agree less.

In time, this might be how building information is transmitted to those charged with constructing our creations. I just don't think it will happen in our lifetimes. And I'm certain that Graphisoft, in its infinite myopisim and bungling execution will be the one to bring that future to us.

Again I will ask: who is the target audience for this thing? I have no interest in my audience being able to click on a wall and see what it is made of. I want them to understand my design in it's most essential form, not be overwhelmed by the complexity of its construction.

BIM software is complex stuff and GS always has this excuse to lean back on when they introduce another convoluted counterintuitive feature that does not maintain any of the conventions of the previously poorly executed (and never finalized) features. We've come to expect it.

But with VBE, Graphisoft had an opportunity to prove that they could take a simple idea --understanding a model via spacial exploration-- and make a simple, beautiful viewer app to do it with. Something that hides, rather than flaunts, the underlying complexity from its users. But nooooo, they were seduced like everyone else (besides perhaps Apple) and had to make it "full featured" to justify the absurd price.

My message is that less is more. If the audience needs to be coached through how to use the stupid tool and what all the moronic buttons mean, then it is worthless to me (especially since I do not share a common language with much of my audience). However, if it is so simple that a 5 year old can use it, then a tool like VBE becomes much more valuable to me. At the very least the author needs to have the ability to hide the complexity from the audience and reduce the experience to something with a navigation bar and nothing else.

Many players invested a lot of money in the smart phone market. There were feature wars and button counts. But it was not until Apple stripped out all the useless crap and made something that was simple and beautiful that the market really started to blossom (at least here in the US). Please GS, don't give us a 2004 Treo when what we all want is a 2009 iPhone.

Nattering nabob of negativism
2023 MBP M2 Max 32GM. MaxOS-Current

Anonymous · ‎2009-03-02

Karl wrote:
The licensed VBE saves an EXE file

Hey Karl,

That was not apparent to me in reading the info about VBE. I guess that's a good thing, but are you certain only one license is required? If so, do you know if it can be installed on multiple computers within the same company with the single license purchase? I don't see how it would make sense to purchase a license for each user.

All questions for my reseller, I know...

And Chazz, I think you're right on the money. Is this a presentation tool, or what? I'm not sure it knows itself yet.

Ben Cohen · ‎2009-03-02

Chazz wrote:
However, if it is so simple that a 5 year old can use it.............

I have a 5 year old and I just checked. She can use it, easy peazy!!. But she's pretty bright

Seriously, you double click the .exe and then fly around like playing a game. You don't have to play with the settings. Tomorrow I will see if my 2 year old can use it.

Ben Cohen
Mac and PC
Archicad (Latest Version) aus
www.4DLibrary.com.au

Anonymous · ‎2009-03-02

Chazz wrote:
Krippahl wrote:
Also being able to extract information from the various components, besides dimensions and layers, is indispensable. For instance, if I select a door I want to see all kinds of info, like materials, fabricator, prices, fire rating, and all those things that are already in my model.
I could not agree less.

These are GS words about VBE:
"All stakeholders - clients, consultants, builders, etc. - can explore and fully understand the entire architectural project design at any stage of the design development process in a user friendly 3D navigation environment."

Thats your target audience.

If the product is intended for consultants and builders, then there has to be more information in the model.

owen · ‎2009-03-02

[Edit]: Looking again at the brochure it seems like you can already extract a lot of this information from the model with VBE? So maybe it is not so much work to make more available. A completely user-definable element tagging system in AC would help..

Chazz wrote:
Krippahl wrote:
Also being able to extract information from the various components, besides dimensions and layers, is indispensable. For instance, if I select a door I want to see all kinds of info, like materials, fabricator, prices, fire rating, and all those things that are already in my model.
I could not agree less...

Again I will ask: who is the target audience for this thing? I have no interest in my audience being able to click on a wall and see what it is made of. I want them to understand my design in it's most essential form, not be overwhelmed by the complexity of its construction.

Eric wrote:
And Chazz, I think you're right on the money. Is this a presentation tool, or what? I'm not sure it knows itself yet.

I can see this being useful for early client presentations of a conceptual model right through to enabling on-site viewing of a construction model, complete with all the functions Miguel has described. Of course this depends on the suitability of the model but VICO shows this can be done if the motivation is there. Turn layers on and off to get into the details on site using a tablet, mark it up, refer to associated drawings .. very handy.

However this will all take resources away from ArchiCAD .. and for that reason alone i think it should remain a presentation tool only with very few options. Perhaps some kind of 3D Markup ability (tagging elements with comments, etc) but that is it.

There is enough to do on ArchiCAD already

Chazz wrote:
...if it is so simple that a 5 year old can use it, then a tool like VBE becomes much more valuable to me. At the very least the author needs to have the ability to hide the complexity from the audience and reduce the experience to something with a navigation bar and nothing else.

Please GS, don't give us a 2004 Treo when what we all want is a 2009 iPhone.

exactly

cheers,

Owen Sharp

Design Technology Manager
fjmt | francis-jones morehen thorp

iMac 27" i7 2.93Ghz | 32GB RAM | OS 10.10 | Since AC5

Chazz · ‎2009-03-02

Krippahl wrote:
These are GS words about VBE:
"All stakeholders - clients, consultants, builders, etc. - can explore and fully understand the entire architectural project design at any stage of the design development process in a user friendly 3D navigation environment."

Thats your target audience.

If the product is intended for consultants and builders, then there has to be more information in the model.

Yeah, I read that too. And I hate to be put in the position of arguing against modernity, but, I'm sorry: I simply don't have consultants and certainly no builders who could use something like this as a means to extract meaninful information from my model. Let's say they did click on a door and find its manufacturer and fire rating? What would they do with that bit of information? Write it down on scratch paper? There are 97 rated doors in the building and all of them are already scheduled. Wouldn't the door schedule be a better place to describe doors?

I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in the dumb old USA we simply have no expectation or couture or infrastructure or legal framework (let alone specialty jobsite hardware) for exchanging data this way. Still Miguel, I have a project coming up in Portugal, perhaps if you do have such a culture and expectation for this kind of thing, I will be talking to you.

My point is simply that this sort interactive, explorative data sharing is potentially very useful, but really only to describe less tangible, spacial information. The target for that kind of info is is the client (or other, less technical stakeholder) and you do that audience a tremendous disservice by exposing them to all the information-overburden of VBE.

How can I cay it? I want them to see my design the way I intend it. I do not want them to be able to toggle layers on and off for God's sake. I don't even expect them to know what a layer is. Why does Graphisoft expect my audience to know what a layer is? That, in essence, is the problem with this whole missed opportunity of a product.

Nattering nabob of negativism
2023 MBP M2 Max 32GM. MaxOS-Current

Anonymous · ‎2009-03-02

Chazz wrote:
I simply don't have consultants and certainly no builders who could use something like this as a means to extract meaninful information from my model.

Ok Chaz, you made it clear what kind of client YOU have, and what kind of product YOU want.

Could it be that there are more ArchiCad users out there, with different needs, and that their clients are a bit different from yours?

Could it even be that the (silent) majority are pretty much interested in the same functionality I am, and it is for those persons that GS keeps churning out all these great products?

After all, there must be a slight chance that the universe is not Chazzcentric...

For instance, I have currently a 4000m2 school in the build. The builder wanted to know which wall went where, as there are 7 types of different internal walls (mainly because of acoustic related issues).

I could give him 7 drawings with those walls high lined, but instead I gave him the model and let him filter that kind of info as needed.

Only in this case, he had to download the AC trial version. The VBE would be a good alternative for that kind of questioning of the model.

Chazz · ‎2009-03-02

Krippahl wrote:
After all, there must be a slight chance that the universe is not Chazzcentric...

Fair enough but I think it's reasonable to say that there remains some question as to where this thing is best deployed in the workflow.

I will continue to argue for simpler and more beautiful. That's how I want my universe.

Nattering nabob of negativism
2023 MBP M2 Max 32GM. MaxOS-Current

Chazz · ‎2009-03-02

Ben wrote:
I have a 5 year old and I just checked. She can use it, easy peazy!!. But she's pretty bright

I think we've established that the kids down under are smarter and the contractors in Portugal are more techno-savvy and resourceful.

Nattering nabob of negativism
2023 MBP M2 Max 32GM. MaxOS-Current

Anonymous · ‎2009-03-04

In the past I have used both Google earth and EON Reality to make my projects 3 dimensionally "available" for Clients, GC's, and subs with good results. While VBe doesn't offer a physical virtual reality like EON it does provide a reasonable experience.

Unlike Chazz, I want those involved to be as familiar as possible with the project. If the client doesn't like something, or the engineers doesn't understand, or the contractor is perplexed I want to deal with this earlier rather than later. I have more use for working models than "finished:" presentation models. I want something I can get feedback from as opposed to having a trophy to put on display. I think it's great these folks can root around in the virtual building.

Anyhow this is less expensive than some rendering packages that are in available to ArchiCAD users.

Cheers Cary

Find the next step in your career as a Graphisoft Certified BIM Coordinator!

Zermatt [and in 2009: Virtual Building Explorer]

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