Wishes
Post your wishes about Graphisoft products: Archicad, BIMx, BIMcloud, and DDScad.

Ceiling Tool

Laura Yanoviak
Advocate
ArchiCAD needs a Ceiling Tool:

- for better interoperability (IFC translation)

- to create snappable grids see related wish

- to create accurate ceiling grids see related wish
MacBook Pro Apple M2 Max, 96 GB of RAM
AC26 US (5002) on Mac OS Ventura 13.5
11 REPLIES 11
Geoff Briggs
Mentor
I haven’t given this enough thought, but it seems we also need an RCP Mode, where elements below a defined plane appear greyed-out or dashed. The question is, do we need additional attributes and settings or could the existing ones do dual purpose (FPCP, uncut lines, overhead lines, etc.)?

And at the risk of muddying the waters, couldn’t IFC identity issues be solved with a simple tag parameter that was populated with the relevant choices available in the current IFC version? E.g. a roof could be a ramp or a driveway, a curtain wall a railing or a ceiling, a set of slabs a planter or a stair, etc. We can’t possibly have, and certainly don’t want, a tool for every conceivable type of building element. I would much rather see ArchiCAD’s existing tools become more capable, and flexible. Like profiled slab and roof edges, curved beams, etc.

But I confess to not knowing enough about it. What happens with IFC export today when you model a footing with the slab tool, or turned-down slab edge with the wall or beam tool?

Don’t get me wrong, I am not arguing against better ceiling modeling features. I’m just questioning whether a Ceiling Tool is the right approach. We already have tools for flat, sloped and panelized surfaces. What does a ceiling tool do that these do not, other than calling itself a ceiling?
Regards,
Geoff Briggs
I & I Design, Seattle, USA
AC7-27, M1 Mac, OS 14.x
Quick fix of CW tool would allow to use it as RC tool...

If only it was possible to edit the shape, origin etc on plan (a it is possible on sections)

For now CW tool is quite good for making tiles on the walls, with that fix I propose - it would be also usefull for tiles on the floors as well.

All this can be done now but with painfull way of editing in 3d only.


BTW Cigraph's Archipanel works quite well for RC

Best Regards,
Piotr
Laura Yanoviak
Advocate
Geoff wrote:
We can’t possibly have, and certainly don’t want, a tool for every conceivable type of building element. I would much rather see ArchiCAD’s existing tools become more capable, and flexible. Like profiled slab and roof edges, curved beams, etc.
I agree with that -- in fact, I don't see why the Roof tool and the Slab tool can't be combined -- so perhaps the wish should be for more functionality within each tool -- including some way to designate a Slab/Roof with the appropriate IFC classification.

We have had difficulty in the past with firms using Revit (which does not use layers) distinguishing between what is a roof, what is a floor plane, and what is a ceiling in our model.

Again, the CW tool may work with some added functionality -- and if IFC can recognize it as a ceiling!
MacBook Pro Apple M2 Max, 96 GB of RAM
AC26 US (5002) on Mac OS Ventura 13.5
Laura Yanoviak
Advocate
Geoff wrote:
I haven’t given this enough thought, but it seems we also need an RCP Mode, where elements below a defined plane appear greyed-out or dashed. The question is, do we need additional attributes and settings or could the existing ones do dual purpose (FPCP, uncut lines, overhead lines, etc.)?
This goes back to James' old wish posted here for those who have not yet voted.
MacBook Pro Apple M2 Max, 96 GB of RAM
AC26 US (5002) on Mac OS Ventura 13.5
I think maybe some kind of "tag" might be added to the tools so that the exchanging information would be more usefull rather than multiplying the tools themselves...

Best Regards,
Piotr
Anonymous
Not applicable
Laura wrote:
Geoff wrote:
We can’t possibly have, and certainly don’t want, a tool for every conceivable type of building element. I would much rather see ArchiCAD’s existing tools become more capable, and flexible. Like profiled slab and roof edges, curved beams, etc.
I agree with that -- in fact, I don't see why the Roof tool and the Slab tool can't be combined -- so perhaps the wish should be for more functionality within each tool -- including some way to designate a Slab/Roof with the appropriate IFC classification.

We have had difficulty in the past with firms using Revit (which does not use layers) distinguishing between what is a roof, what is a floor plane, and what is a ceiling in our model.

Again, the CW tool may work with some added functionality -- and if IFC can recognize it as a ceiling!
We do have a tool for every conceivable type of building element, and have had since the earliest versions. It's the chair tool. 😉

I agree that we can't burden the interface with separate tools for everything, but we do need tools for the major types. While ceilings are not a significant discrete assembly in most residential work they are a primary part of most commercial and practically all institutional work, which typically consist of core and shell, frame and deck, and partitions and ceilings.

As you all probably know it would be very easy for me to go into a long dissertation on component and assembly types, organization, geometry methods and so on. This is an important overall issue but really beyond the scope of the immediate question.

It's true that we all wish for the tool that will do the particular thing that we each need and that a program that includes every single feature that everyone wants becomes unmanageably complicated, but I do think that a building modeling program should have dedicated tools for all the major components and assemblies.

Now that we have the curtain wall tool, ceilings are the only major type that I can think of that is not represented (if you count the marginally useful stair tool as a place holder for vertical circulation assemblies).

As we all know BIM isn't just about getting the shapes and names right but also getting things into the right categories and associations.

If you want to really trim the number of tool types we could have:

1. Horizontal (and sloping) assemblies: Floors, roofs, ceilings...
2. Vertical (and leaning) assemblies: Walls, columns, curtain walls...
3. Discrete (and constrained) assemblies: Stairs, ramps, lights, windows...

With special features and functions associated with each subtype...

(Well I guess I couldn't resist going off on a tangent)

Anyway, as far as this wish goes I feel strongly that we need a tool that enables quick and efficient ceiling modeling with proper export to other BIM programs (ie IFC ceiling types).
Geoff Briggs
Mentor
OK, point(s) taken. So please explain what this tools does and how it differs from current tools, other than the export to IFC as ceiling part. Thanks.
Regards,
Geoff Briggs
I & I Design, Seattle, USA
AC7-27, M1 Mac, OS 14.x
Anonymous
Not applicable
The basic minimum:

1. Default to horizontal like a floor/slab with the option to pitch like a roof. Using the roof tool for horizontal ceilings is a pain because of all the extra clicking to define the non-existent slope.

2. Fixtures would drop in and self intersect as skylights do in roofs, but with performance closer to doors and windows in walls (I would hope), and without the constraint in orientation.

3. Reference to the bottom surface as roofs do. It is annoying to use floors/slabs as ceilings (as I typically do now) and have to always add the thickness to get the proper height.

4. Grid/fill options with snaps to the lines and intersections.


Desirable features:

1. Auto fit to walls and/or zones. Auto adjust in such cases when room changes.

2. Detail option to include grid, tiles, track, channel, etc. which can be toggled by MVO.

3. Curved/vaulted option.

4. Profiled edges (auto cornice).

5. Coffered, tray and cove options.
Anonymous
Not applicable
My 2 centimes...

If Archicad is serious about being a true BIM application than it needs to move towards proper definitions of the basic elements of a building. As stated above, at the minimum these need to be floors, ceilings, walls, roof beams and columbs.

Prehaps some kind of "tree" structure that is used to tag various objects, which would lead to being able to associate objects with a selected element. For example you would select the object tagged as a ceiling in the tree structure, after which any object placed would automaticly associate to it (lights for example) and said object would be placed under the element in the tree struture.

Though I enjoy using Archicad very much most of the time, it feels such a let down to have to use work arounds to create substitue building elements. Unfortunatly in this respect I very often feel that I am not using an intelligent BIM application.

I very much hope that Graphisoft will move now to implement intelligent associated building elements that go much further than "trim to wall"